Nationalism. Change from a VSO language to an SVO language and implications.

[AN4]

Nice little lecture here from the esteemed Richard Dawkins illustrating the above with the genetic evidence. Worth a watch.

As I see the above video has been commented on on Arsefield's, I will extend my reply.

Dawkins really isn't denying race in the clip and his (rather self-satisfied) statement - We are all Africans, is really nothing more profound than saying - We are all of the same species (duh).

'Out of Africa' simply doesn't work as race denial, on any level, but the anti-white (e.g. roc) is too stupid to realise it.

And I can only assume what the aforementioned dumb anti-white thought was illustrated in the clip was that Irish people had black skin - never happened.

 

[roc_abilly]

Listen more closely you halfwit.

His point is that we are "an astonishingly uniform species originating very recently in Africa".

He specifically makes the point that while "we look to our eyes more different", outwardly comparing say an African or any other far flung ethnicity to a white European, that "the genetics is very clear" that there is less difference between that white and black man than between two chimpazees who look absolutely identical to each other taken from the very same forest.

Listen to him you moron. There is zero genetic science corroborating the differences you claim there are between your claimed "races".

 

[AN4]

Listen more closely you halfwit.

His point is that we are "an astonishingly uniform species originating very recently in Africa".

He specifically makes the point that while "we look to our eyes more different", outwardly comparing say an African or any other far flung ethnicity to a white European, that "the genetics is very clear" that there is less difference between that white and black man than between two chimpazees who look absolutely identical to each other taken from the very same forest.

Listen to him you moron. There is zero genetic science corroborating the differences you claim there are between your claimed "races".

I did listen to him, which is why I know what you said he said (besides the white and black part - your fixation) is correct.

It's not a denial of race.

 

[Mowl]

So that is why I get pretty excited about it all.

When I lived in Dublin, one of my mates was from Tullamore. We've known each other for decades and we can pretty much pick up a conversation we left off upon meeting again, that sort of closeness. Anyway, Joe's a black man, adopted by a rather amazing and seriously rotund old Irish type lady who took around a dozen orphaned kids over the years. We'd go for a drink in Kehoe's off Grafton Street most weekends and only on one occasion did I see anyone act in a racist manner towards him. Joe's a gentle giant, strong as an ox and stubborn as a mule. But he handled it in his own way which was to talk to the drunk idiot who offended him like he was talking to, well.. ..a drunk idiot who offended him.

He ripped the twat several new arses and he had the entire bar in ructions of laughter at the white Irish dope who thought everyone would take his side if things kicked off. Joe's hardly academic material, but he put on one of the funniest shows I ever saw in a pub between disgruntled regulars dealing with some blow-in who thought being white would protect him. After the pasting he took, he was told not to come back - he wouldn't be served again.

I couldn't stop laughing because Joe's accent is pure Tulla-muck. More like singing than talking, when he'd strut into a room I suppose everyone thought he'd have some sort of African drawl or maybe even a cockney accent, but no: 100% pure Irish mountain dew poitín. Every sentence finishing with a strongly accented: 'y'know now' type Val Martin culchie-ism. Cracked me up.

But in general terms, I don't recall there being really any sort of racism towards darker-skinned people at that time. It wasn't as if he felt unsafe or had any reason to be wary of where he went and who approached him. Things have changed a lot since then though, these days there seems to be more people of foreign skin-colour all over Dublin city centre than there are white Irish people. On those terms, Jambo's campaign is obviously failing: the more he complains about being replaced, the more replacements there are standing in line.

The QED here is quite obvious to me.

Maybe Jambo needs to seriously rethink his campaign of white supremacy?

And by 'rethink' I do of course mean him checking in with Collect/Woody/Mangle on telegram to find a suitable answer to the issues of the day.

This lad's also from Tullamore: it's RíRá from Scary Eire with his classic '25 O'Clock In The Mornin' - ..great accent, mind you:

 

[roc_abilly]

It's not a denial of race.

If you're getting to that, Dawkins position is that the genetic differences between "races" are (a) incredibly, incredibly tiny relative to any meaningful difference that makes a difference (b) these tiny biological differences exist on a spectrum, not in any clear defined categories.

But I think the message of the video is pretty clear - and he didn't set out to make "a denial of race", or in other words cast the debate in your terms, rather he cast it in his own terms, based on his own deep knowledge of the science (which science you would take on board if you had any common sense).

 

[AN4]

If you're getting to that, Dawkins position is that the genetic differences between "races" are (a) incredibly, incredibly tiny relative to any meaningful difference that makes a difference (b) these tiny biological differences exist on a spectrum, not in any clear defined categories.

Meaningful difference are your words

But I think the message of the video is pretty clear - and he didn't set out to make "a denial of race", or in other words cast the debate in your terms, rather he cast it in his own terms, based on his own deep knowledge of the science (which science you would take on board if you had any common sense).

I think you made a post upthread in which you admitted that there are biases in the social "sciences", and I replied (to your post) with a - lol

I could have extended my reply and I will now. What happens is, biologists like Dawkins, geneticists and so on will say things.. that then gets filtered through the social "sciences" to reach the (foregone and erroneous) conclusion that race isn't real. And (anti-whites) saps like you lap that up.

 

[roc_abilly]

You're a moron, a racist moron. In Dawkin's own words, the final word, he says, “Whenever I’m asked to fill in a form asking what race I am, I just put ‘human’...”

 

[roc_abilly]

Take out the "meaningful" if you like, then. "... a difference that makes a difference...".

SFA.

 

[AN4]

Find a better clip or anecdote

Race is real

 

[roc_abilly]

Race is real

On what basis? State your case clearly. Obviously not biological, as Dawkins illustrates. Is it based on your laughable IQ tests then? Or what?

It's definitely more of a social construct, than anything you can assert as "real", you gobshite.

Or make your case. Make one detailed post making your case. No stupid videos, that's a warning.

 

[roc_abilly]

Lame. Always the same. You have nothing, only moronic videos from Woods, Morgosh and Colchops. When you're told to stick those pathetic videos up your hole and use your own words, the spaghetti bowl is upended. Lame, lame lame. And there you have Irish white supremacism, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, good bye Jambo, enjoy Arsefields and the company better suited to you.

 

[roc_abilly]

Also, the majority of scientists disagree with Dawkin's conclusion that "race is real", and argue that those tiny variations between race (dwarfed by variations within races), are not substantial enough to base a claim upon that "race is real". E.g.

The race delusion

Richard Dawkins is wrong about race, and you probably are too

jonathanmeddings.medium.com

Among other things they point out that racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and on that basis need to be phased out.

 

[roc_abilly]

I think as well if we are going to have this argument we have to always keep in mind that the reason Jambo claims "race is real" is not because of the scientific evidence, such as it is, more so it is because of his attachment to certain assumptions regarding natural ability, and political, intellectual and moral status, that he feels should be accorded to his own white unit (in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality), relative to the opposing black unit. For as a white supremacist he needs to feel the superiority of his own power unit over the other, that is what all this is about at the end of the day, and in itself that is another basis for phasing out the idea of these kind of racial categories.

 

[roc_abilly]

Notice roc_abilly dropped Dawkins like a hot potato once the truth was revealed. Now he's back to the social "sciences"

I have not dropped him at all you moron.

I believe he has a lot to offer to the debate - he is demonstrating the genetic evidence such as it is, honestly.

He is pointing out the variance between different races is much less than the variance within races.

He gives us his conclusions on the basis of that evidence such as that when he's asked to fill in a form asking what race he is, he puts ‘human’.

He has also made the conclusion that "We are all African".

Now sure on the basis that there are indeed genetic variations between races, he also draws the conclusion that "race is biological fact", even if there are wider and more significant variations within the races themselves.

But I am wholly on solid scientific ground to personally disagree with that conclusion, and so are the other scientists who disagree with that conclusion (on a number of scientific bases).

There is a wider debate. It is informed by many elements.

Dawkins is one element no doubt.

 

[roc_abilly]

I am a staunch race realist not only because it's the truth, but because race denialism is a perfidious and pernicious anti-white lie

You're a fucking clown is what you are, a moron, a racist.

"Anti-white" is propaganda bullshit.

The emotional argument does not trump facts.

"Anti-white" my hole.

 

[roc_abilly]

I haven't dropped Dawkins.

Sure, let's all watch his little presentation again. How about that.

 

[roc_abilly]

Anyway, if we're going to move forward, we need to define race, what is its definition in your eyes, Jambo?

You who are all about strict definitions on wikipedia and the like.

 

[Lumpy Von Talbot]

The funny thing about white supremacists is that just one look at them tends to undercut the notion of a genetic justification for supremacy. Some of them look like a genetic etch-a-sketch. Spartans they aren't. The fellow from the BNP looked like he fell out of the genetic tree and hit every branch on the way down.

It is the same in the US. The white supremacists tend not to lend a lot of confidence in their theory even just looking at them.

 

[roc_abilly]

Perhaps time to get this thread back on topic at this juncture.

In the terms of the recent contributions, we might say that the original intent of the thread was to make the case that the unit that passionate nationalistic feeling is projected onto would be better cast as the Irish language rather than "the white race" or something equally as spurious as that.

Interestingly, we found above that when we investigate the Irish language as a unit for this projection of nationalistic feeling onto it, included or at least very close alongside are certain Arab and African languages, i.e. the rare old VSO languages, strikingly similar to the Irish language.

(In fact, as Dawkins demonstrated on this thread, the genetic evidence corroborates this wider, more inclusive unit, much more so than the racial unit.)

So if we insist of going down this nationalistic road of serving something bigger than ourselves, claiming superiority for it relative to other competing units, would it not be infinitely wiser and more effective to focus on language?

Irish versus English. Or, white versus black. Which choice is more noble? Which choice has greater moral authority? And in fact with respect to any other metric you might think of, would those of nationalistic bent perhaps be better served obsessing about their language, rather than obsessing over "race" or something similar?

 

[Mowl]

The Irish language is all but dead. A tiny percentage of people speak it these days and I often consider the fact that, while Finland and Ireland have many parallels in the last one hundred years, the language factor is totally off kilter. Ireland likes to have the Irish versions of the names of neighbourhoods and streets second to English on her street signs and bus destinations, hardly any Irish people can even pronounce the names, let alone know where they actually are. Language is the primary identifier of most cultures but Ireland has a twisted and broken way of dealing with the loss of her language over the years of British occupation.

I use the Gaelic version of my name, and haven't had a passport with an English version of my name in decades. I wasn't taught any Irish language in the final two years of primary schooling due to John Sullivan not speaking any Irish at all. He also spoke with a slightly British tone due to whatever time he spent over there for whatever reason. In turn, the teachers at secondary school consulted the seven of us who went on to St John's College about the missing years of Gaelic language study and we were summarily punished by being booted out of the class and sent to an empty classroom to study it alone. In time we all complained that our time was being wasted and we wanted to put the 'free periods' of Irish classes to better use seeing as we were all artistically talented and wanted to study art and French. We had no teachers available, so we did it ourselves instead.

This led to my Leaving Cert results containing an N/A after Gaelic: as in, not applicable.

We were being kicked around and made to feel inadequate because of some primary teacher not having the qualifications he ought to have had: English, Irish and Math were obligatory subjects so effectively we all failed the Leaving Cert even though some of us topped the grades of even the best Gaelic speakers. Of that group of seven, another like me had a Father dying in the family unit. His died shortly before mine, but we both suffered in exams due to the weight of a family death as well as the time we had to take off from schooling to tend to his/our father's needs. So in effect, my Leaving Cert results were binned the same day they arrived; my Mam and I opened the envelope, took a look at the results, looked at each other, and I tore the fucker apart and binned it. I started work the following Monday at the National Maritime Museum out in Dun Laoire.

I didn't need any Gaelic there, nor did I need it anywhere else - including the rest of the results they sent me. The piece of paper was a final token of dismissal from the schools I attended for sixteen years. It's hard to have faith in the institutions after a kick in the teeth that, and in many ways it woke me up pretty fast as to how the system deliberately fails so many of its subjects out of hand and without any real reason. So I grew to despise the language until I finally had enough of Ireland and started trying other cities to see which suited me better. Now I speak Finnish - not Irish, as a second language.

This is exactly how Ireland is: doesn't matter how hard you try, how much you sacrifice, how much time you put in to it: you're just meat for the grinder. The exams as such have nothing to do with intelligence, they're about memory capacity. They're used to filter out the non-desirable and excess weight of so many kids' lives. 'There simply isn't room for all of us on the island' was one excuse they offered me. So the examination process isn't about testing your mental abilities, it's process that separates the wheat from the chaff, and it does so coldly and without any emotion.

Nationalism and language in Ireland is at best laughable and at worst disgraceful.

How many of your Irish nationalist telegram/twitter heroes can even introduce themselves in Gaelic? How come you never see or hear any Gaelic slogans at the demonstrations? Why do you have to pay to keep a Gaelic TV channel going when such a small percentage even understand it? Why offer the news in Gaelic when so few tune in for it? Snobbery is one factor. Pig fucking ignorance is another. RTE is on its knees, yet TNaG soldiers on, full of smug bastards patting themselves and each other on the back.

Ireland truly is fucked up nineteen ways from last Tuesday.

There's no winning - only varying degrees of losing.