Nationalism. Change from a VSO language to an SVO language and implications.

[roc_abilly]

Some food for thought.

VSO = Verb-Subject-Object sentence order
SVO = Subject-Verb-Object sentence order

Something that struck me this morning is this increasing tendency to focus on "nouns" rather than "verbs", or the doing of things.

You have all these "definitions" of things. And no emphasis on the actual doing of anything.

So say someone goes and reads a wiki about definitions that some people have written down for them about things like ethno-nationalism or race realism... and it seems when they have read these definitions, what happens is their brain alters, changes, as the primary manifestation of having absorbed this information put in front of them.

Then, the doing or the "verb" eventually follows from those definitions, rather than the other way around.

(If there is any doing at all, typically after a considerable period has elapsed, when enough brains are thus altered to reach a critical mass, or a sizable mob is formed. That would seem to be the mechanism to action)

Whereas in old Irish, it was the doing that was at the front. It was the doing of things that created the definitions, and those definitions were far more ethereal and varied, for example we had in the culture created from our language more than 30 different names for a field, 20 different words for a hole, 45 for a stone, 50 words for your penis, more than 4,300 words to describe people’s character etc. And many, many ways to express say the changing qualities of the ocean, light or the wind etc.

But now we just have these lifeless, souless, simplistic lists of stupid words and associated definitions like ethno-nationalism or race-realism, defined on some stupid wiki or somewhere by equally stupid Anglo-Americans, and we have fuck all else, and no appreciation of distinctions, or personal involvement, and these are not things that came from one's own self, or from one's own culture.

There is no doing to create our own reality, rather it is imposed from outside.

Anyway this just struck me while watching some of the scurrying around going on in the online petri dishes.

 

[Mowl]

TS Eliot said:

'Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break,
under the burden,
Under the tension, slip, slide, perish, Decay with imprecision,
will not stay in place, Will not stay still.
Shrieking voices Scolding, mocking, or merely chattering,
Always assail them..'

This appears to be fundamentally true, even if it was written almost one hundred years ago.

People these days adapt words and quite often use them incorrectly. I recall on the streets of Ballyfermot how the kids would shout at each other saying: 'shurrup you - yer parannoying me' which used to make me laugh but at the same time I wouldn't correct them. Because that would be a fatal move in my old town. Instead I smiled and gave them a nod as though to say: 'clever'.

But that was years back and only used among those who were the least attending school-going kids.

But regardless, the English language is frequently bastardized all over the world. Even up here in Finland, when they speak in English their pronunciation is at times off centre, but there's a 'cuteness' factor there too, one which I don't want to see disappearing so I rarely intervene and correct them. English is their third language, after all - yet they speak English far better than many people I grew up with whose lexicons are short and their use of grammar appalling.

Full stops, commas, there/their/dare, aren't/are not, paragraphs, apostrophes, etc - all banjaxed and messed up by people who've been speaking English and only English for their entire lives. The most Irish they took home was through prayers learned by rote and battered into them, and a request to go to the toilet. I was forced to memorize the national anthem in Gaelic. And English. These days I remember little of what was beaten into me: mostly in mathematics. The theorems, the square on the hypotenuse, Pythagoras and the gang. Fuck all use to any of us growing up in Dublin 10, up to our ears in surrounding factories and their loud honks at lunchtime and day's end. The smell of crisps from the King's factory over the wall driving us all mad.

People adapt things they come across. They reuse them in different ways and few if any ever check the thesaurus to see if they're using it correctly, or indeed spelling it correctly. Jambo's that type: he comes across these 'one size fits all' type slogans and plasters them all over the internet like your man Plonker over on Arsefield's: two hundred and twelve tweets per day, yet never wondering if anybody ever bothers to go to an obscure site to read them rather than the source itself: Twitter.

I admire a man who can teach me something about the English language I don't already know.

But I hate a bastard who beat it into me.

So, to spite them, I use frequently use very obscure English words not generally in current circulation when addressing them.

This sends them flying to the online dictionary to get a definition as fast as they can to give the impression they already 'knew' what the obscure word meant. I'm looking at Jambo's corner here: no sign of him and no sign of a reply as to how he manifests his political and sociological beliefs as an 'ethno-nationalist' so like Captain Con, I'll be putting the sad cunt on ignore - there's no point in even talking AT the stupid little prick. He's lost in a sweet romance with his telegram/twitter one hundred and forty character comment lads.

It amazes me sometimes to see how appalling most of the Irish chat site commentators are with the English language. Val Martin finally found a niche where he doesn't have to type anything out; by speaking directly at the camera on his ancient old laptop, he can avoid the battering I give the toothless old fart. He only has to write a few key words on an A4 sheet of paper with a dead permanent marker, then pin it to his backdrop. In his life thus far - I'd estimate his post count across all the sites both closed down and currently running at somewhere in the hundreds of thousands. At the very least. But he gave too much away and now he's locked in the barn thinking up topics to broadcast to his native culchie rednecks and extended family members.

Twitching like an epileptic, his eye constantly jittering and winking, his upper lip straining to hide the missing front teeth, avoiding words with excessive sibilance, and generally making an anus of himself. There are loads of his type all over these sites, and I find it comical reading their pathetic efforts at writing about the simple things in an understandable language resembling basic English.

It's the only language most of them have, so their kids in turn will have a similiar approach to using the language incorrectly and as time passes, so Eliot will be proved absolutely correct in his observations. The English language is being mauled to death. Half wits all over the world bastardizing the only language they know and can speak somewhat understandably.

 

[roc_abilly]

Indeed Mowl, I concur.

But what I had in mind mostly was something akin to how the snail makes his shell.

The interesting part, the vital part are the living processes that make the shell, of which the shell is merely a fossil, a record of those processes, preserved, dead, now lifeless.

An exquisite record no doubt, of that life.

But I am trying to get at the mindset interested in only the shell, that has been eventually cast off. (By another culture, another life).

And not really in the life itself, in the living process.

Taking "ethnic nationalism" for illustration. The living process that created the "shell" of it was in its first arising in the thought and cultural current of German Romanticism in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

A living thing that continued to grow, and was perhaps brought to its culmination by the Nazis, with their harking back to those German Romantic ideas, the mysticism, 'blood and soil' nationalism, pining for the past, and focus on emotional experience.

Then once Nazism was discarded by history, by the events of the twentieth century, what was left of "ethnic nationalism" was its shell, a fossilised cultural artefact of those once living currents.

But what is it that mindsets like Jambo's are fascinated by this shell, by this fossil, they turn it over and over and over, until their minds and very brain structure, its neural pathways, come to mirror this fossil.

It is not of themselves, or their own doings, their own life or even of the doings of their own people, this fossil.

They have no life of their own.

I hope I am making this idea clearer.

 

[Lumpy Von Talbot]

I've had a thought occur over the years that the vivid way Irish people have of speaking English has been down to a microsecond of epegenetic linger in in the mind which means our thoughts are in Irish word-order if not in gaelic but the words coming out are in English and have to be reconciled to the constraints of that language..

Odd theory I know and I haven't enough Irish to explain what I mean really except that on the rare occasions I struggle through a bit there does seem to be a switch in the order of language that tumbles out.

 

[Mowl]

'Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work..'

Epigenetics, case in point right there: lovely rare word, hardly ever used in common conversation, and one I'll bring with me into my viduity.

 

[roc_abilly]

Who the fuck even uses a word like "deracinated". Halfwit freaks.

Yeah, and "everyone" being Jambo's online mates, Morgoth, Woods, the mindless keyboard warriors in the US and UK calling themselves "race realists" and the handful of dumb as bricks Irish losers who hang around Han's and Dan's websites etc.

"Deracinated" also being reminiscent of terms like "race-mixing" which is another makey-uppey word these losers like to use, or "race traitors", and of course they harbour particular ire for any girl who chooses to go out with black men in preference to going out with them. Well that's probably at the root of it all, isn't it.

‘Chloe is a race-traitor’: Aussie teen added to sickening global database

The 18-year-old Melbourne student woke to seven DM’s from people she’d never met - what they revealed left her fearing for her life.

7news.com.au

So what's "viscerally repulsive" here? The narrow, suffocating, bigoted, supremacist, ideologically blinkered world invented by these losers, where they condemn others as "deracinated" or "race traitors"?

Or what they claim "everyone" finds repulsive??

Fuck off Jambo with your shite.

 

[roc_abilly]

As my old granny god rest her good soul would have said, "... I'll 'deracinate' you ye little bollix..."

 

[AN4]

Who the fuck even uses a word like "deracinated". Halfwit freaks.

Yeah, and "everyone" being Jambo's online mates, Morgoth, Woods, the mindless keyboard warriors in the US and UK calling themselves "race realists" and the handful of dumb as bricks Irish losers who hang around Han's and Dan's websites etc.

"Deracinated" also being reminiscent of terms like "race-mixing" which is another makey-uppey word these losers like to use, or "race traitors", and of course they harbour particular ire for any girl who chooses to go out with black men in preference to going out with them. Well that's probably at the root of it all, isn't it.

‘Chloe is a race-traitor’: Aussie teen added to sickening global database

The 18-year-old Melbourne student woke to seven DM’s from people she’d never met - what they revealed left her fearing for her life.

7news.com.au

So what's "viscerally repulsive" here? The narrow, suffocating, bigoted, supremacist, ideologically blinkered world invented by these losers, where they condemn others as "deracinated" or "race traitors"?

Or what they claim "everyone" finds repulsive??

Fuck off Jambo with your shite.

Personally, I find it (miscegenation) strange and viscerally repulsive. Why anyone would want to flush their genes down the toilet and have kids who don't look like anything them but there ya go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it's a very small percentage of people who do that and that's despite the relentless white female - black male propaganda in TV adverts, fake news media articles like the one you linked above etc. That doesn't make it (the propaganda) any less anti-white, though.

 

[roc_abilly]

Those views were a product of a very different social and political context, and of a fight very different to your own "fight".

Have a listen to the rest of that conversation.

Jimmy Kimmel on Instagram

80K likes, 1,364 comments - jimmykimmel on February 7, 2021

www.instagram.com

So Ali's fight was against racism.

How did he fight that fight? Understand that and you understand why he held the extreme view he is defending in your clip:

He helped black people living in America become more aware and proud of their peculiarity in their social way of life and in recognising their own cultural contributions.

He helped them to have a lively tribal awareness in order not to lose their dignity and moral rectitude.

He helped them to fight back against the undignified mania of adaptive conformity.

He helped to raise black self-confidence in the interest of a normal living together with whites.

Now you guys pretend that it is the same for you today, with all your spurious talking points about "whites under attack" and so on.

But no, it was vastly different. Listen to that video again. And compare and contrast to the impetus of this movement in the US and UK, that you promote on here.

For that movement is not at all about living together with non whites, or about a fight against systematic oppression and segregation of white people, or any of what I listed above, whatsoever.

No, it is about a white country for white folk, and a charade of being persecuted, and being "replaced", and quite clearly in most of the movement about a reaction based in racism against black people today being considered equal to white people.

 

[roc_abilly]

Anyway, back to the real topic of this thread.

Which was - if we're talking about any kind of "nationalism", the one we should be emphasising is based in the distinctly Irish cultural outlook, the Irish mindset, the old warrior like disposition that our stories tell of, a proud, active culture.

And recognising that that cultural outlook was derived, directly created even, by our ancient language, and certain characteristics within it.

Actually, for Jambo's benefit, let's recall these characteristics are shared with languages from the middle east and Africa corroborating the DNA evidence that our ancestors came from these places, and our skin was darker before it lightened over generations due to climate.

Early Irish people were dark skinned with blue eyes – documentary​

In other words people from these places may be our allies in this kind of "nationalism", assist in the work that needs to be done.

So let's recall in this vein that this culture was so strong that all the early efforts at colonising the country by the English failed due to the English who were coming here becoming "even more Irish than the Irish themselves" - they were assimilated by a stronger, more compelling culture, rather than vice versa.

Let's get back to that, rather than be diverted into all this Stormfront website like online so called "ethno nationalism" and spurious concepts like "race realism", and the accompanying obsession with pseudo scientific ideas about "race", and the accompanying social divisivenesses etc.

Instead let us look towards building reconstituting an outward looking, active, independent, mature, thoughtful, vital culture, and get away from these stale and stupid ideas we hear some idiots go on about, whether of the catholic church, the US or UK, whose philosophies have been the real "invaders" of Irish minds, and which legacy it is imperative we now throw off, without distraction.

What do you say to that, Jambo. Does that not make a lot more sense? Is there not a lot more dignity, decency, and intelligence in that than what's in your online guff?

 

[Mowl]

"As ethno-nationalists, we believe that nationality and ethnicity are one and the same."

And in order to see beliefs through, you post about your 'ethno-nationalism' on an obscure chat site with four members?

That's it? That's your idea of being political or active or something?

Tell us: have you managed to convert anyone else to this grand cultural identity enterprise of yours?

And do you really think it matters at all what you claim your beliefs are if all you do is yap to disinterested Irish people on a four or five person discussion board. You were asked several times over the last three weeks to describe how you enact or manifest these beliefs of yours. You didn't answer me though, and we all know why.

You can say all the shit you like on an anonymous board, but it still doesn't add up to any 'movement' or body of work in converting others.

You might as well believe in tea and hot scones for all the worth your yap about 'ethno-nationalism' or whatever it is you think you are.

Little children sometimes pretend to be super-heroes in capes, but at least they leave the house to play around.

You just hang around, saying this and that: but you don't actually do anything bar act as a conduit for the beliefs of other men you found on the internet who said some shit that appeals to your personal insecurity and need to be part of something bigger than just you yourself.

Kids at least get to play, to exercise themselves, to broaden their imaginations, to learn about the world around them.

You quote anonymous persons on Twitter/Telegram/Arsefield's.

I find that rather sad, but not quite enough to pity you.

 

[AN4]

I probably should have put a line break in my reply..

roc said:

No, it is about a white country for white folk.

I said:

Correct.

"Ireland belongs to the Irish"

(I had already established that Irish people are white).

roc of course doesn't believe that Ireland belongs to the Irish, in fact, he believes that Irish people should be "relegated to taking their place" (become a minority) with people from all over the world.. in a "Brotherhood of Man" - in Ireland.

If you don't believe me, check Gaychat.

If you agree with that anti-Irish, anti-White tramp then let it be known

 

[roc_abilly]

What I said in context:

Well even I learned something in that Spiked article.

"... Eighty-six per cent of the UK population is white compared with around four per cent who are defined as South Asian, coming largely from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh..."

Is that not a fair old upset for the theoretical ideas concerning a "great replacement" (I am referring to the main body of the theory, saying nothing here about that element often adduced to that main body that it consists intentional engineering by shadowy 'elites' to weaken or even eradicate national, or European, identity.).

And straight from the pen of a journalist with tendencies to be seduced by these kind of theoretical ideas, mainly revolving around victimhood and sentimental self regard based in an obvious inferiority complex.

What happened to Enoch Powell's warnings 55 years ago. (Or even going further back, the 1934 pamphlet produced by the 'Research Department for the Jewish Question' in Nazi Germany entitled ‘Are the White Nations Dying?’).

We're talking here about the UK who have had so called "mass" immigration from their former colonies for more than sixty or seventy years now.

But still how far away are they from white people not having majority status (relegated to taking their place with people of other ethnicities, with no one ethnicity consisting more than 50% of the population, just like it was in the great democratic multicultural city states of old, e.g. Alexandria).

 

[AN4]

What I said in context:

You're trying to tell me that this isn't an endorsement -

(relegated to taking their place with people of other ethnicities, with no one ethnicity consisting more than 50% of the population, just like it was in the great democratic multicultural city states of old, e.g. Alexandria).

And yes, I remember one of your comrades was cribbing about the figures in the Spiked article, but it was immediately clear to me (looking at the date of the article) that they would have been taken from the 2011 census.

In the following census, the 86% figure dropped to 81%. There you have it, even with the census data (which I don't believe is a true reflection of the extent of replacement) you see replacement.. yet you're still denying it

 

[roc_abilly]

You're a gibbering halfwit fucking moron, Jambo, prime exhibit A, that is all.

 

[roc_abilly]

Back on topic, Mowl have you ever come across Markku Filppula, Helsinki chap?

He spent years here in Ireland studying how we speak, the grammar of Hiberno-English, and the influence of the Irish language on it.

Not just out West and Kerry, he spent a lot of time staying with host families in the inner city, Gardiner St, and elsewhere, living with the old generation of dockers, fruit dealers, and others, to study their language.

Very interesting body of work. I'd say you'd both have plenty to talk about.

 

[Mowl]

I looked him up on social media, but no - we haven't met.

Sounds like an interesting project, examining the underbelly of Irish-English language. Speaking by phone to one of my doctors recently, a lovely young lady, she kept apologizing for her English, and I had to stop her to tell that actually her spoken and written English is far better than that of many of the people I grew up around who've been speaking English (and only English) their entire lives.

It's an odd perspective in that regular Irish Dubliners have these accents that are generally horrible to my ears, the inner-city and slang, the estate accents and their slang, and of course the much-laughed at D4 accents on the 'Dort' and the 46A. Yet foreigners don't seem offended by it at all. If anything - they consider it 'authentic' and kind of charming.

What we hear as a screeching and wailing littered with 'fuck, fucken, fack' they hear as rather lyrical.

I was asked by one Finn on one occasion how I liked the accent of this one girl I was dating down at the jazz club. I replied that I wasn't aware she had an unusual accent, and he started telling me how her accent was so obviously NOT Helsinki. That she's a country girl. Which she is. Not that I noticed it at all - which struck me as kind of weird in that, when dealing with an extremely complicated language, my focus is never on accent, but rather on grammar and vocabulary. So in turn I asked her what she thought of the Ballyfermot accent.

'What accent?' says she.

So I suppose it's a case of how you look being dependent on where you are.

 

[roc_abilly]

... for Jambo's benefit, let's recall these characteristics are shared with languages from the middle east and Africa corroborating the DNA evidence that our ancestors came from these places, and our skin was darker before it lightened over generations due to climate.

Early Irish people were dark skinned with blue eyes – documentary​

In other words people from these places may be our allies in this kind of "nationalism", assist in the work that needs to be done.

Nice little lecture here from the esteemed Richard Dawkins illustrating the above with the genetic evidence. Worth a watch.

 

[Mowl]

Nice little lecture here from the esteemed Richard Dawkins illustrating the above with the genetic evidence.

Jambo's going to have conniptions with that one for sure.

Worth a watch.

I've a few of his books on my shelf, the most recent being 'The Blind Watchmaker' - which was a gift from a friend at Christmas funnily enough.

 

[roc_abilly]

One of the most incredible experiences of my life involved this insight, long before there was internet to find out about this kind of research.

I was in a far flung country. And there was an office where you applied to get a visa to a neighbouring country.

Everything done manually. Everything outdoors apart from the office itself which was a large kind of mud hut and bamboo structure.

So, you had to come to the office everyday between 9 and 5 pm, waiting for your visa to be processed. Every day for about three days. Waiting were a group of intrepid Germans, some local people, myself, and then this other black skinned stranger, like me floating around the outskirts, observing.

The first thing I noticed about him was that he was observing the very same things as me, and inwardly laughing at the very same things, about the others, about our surroundings, about the goings on in the office, and then I noticed he had the same Connemara blue eyes as me.

Over the days, we gravitated to each other, until we were sitting next to each orther, and then I noticed that underneath his deep black skin, we had the exact same bone structure, the exact same strong, rugged bony mountain man build in our forearms, and we both noticed it at the same time.

He spoke in his language and I spoke in Irish, and even though, outwardly they did not seem to be the same languages, yet we could pretty much understand each other! I don't quite know how to explain it, it was part connection, part something the same in the languages.

I learned he was from some village high in the mountains of north India and that he had been walking many hundreds of miles. His having had a much harder life than mine showed in his exterior, yet it was unmistakeable that somewhere not very far back we had the same kin.

It was exactly like I had been taken from his mountains and left on the Connemara mountains, until my previous black colour had faded utterly. (Or perhaps he had disembarked the same migratory boat we were on a thousand miles before me, that that was our last meeting, somewhere in the mists of time, another conjecture for you).

And thinking later, I supposed that part of the reason we were so incredibly the same was that we both come from mountains that before the modern age of transport were difficult to reach, and usually left untroubled by waves of invasion and pillage over the centuries, and so on.

Anyway, years later, when I saw the work of Dan Bradley and his team from Trinity and their sequencing of Irish and African genomes as part of an ancient African migration study, there in front of me was the science corroborating that personally experienced evidence that had assailed my senses back then. A part of the explanation for it.

So that is why I get pretty excited about it all.