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Ukraine and Russia

Kangal

Member
Let's kick it off.


It's clear Russia desperately needs the war to end soon.

As it spends more and more on the war, its creating a bubble in the Russian economy, while spending money that could have been used, if the oligarchs ever allowed it, to dramatically increase the quality of life for millions of Russians.

Despite any battlefield reverses, Ukraine has already won. Once an isolated outlier in Europe, in a kind of no man's land between Europe and Russia before, its now firmly in the European umbrella and the West in general.

Russia has no good options now. The Ukrainian population will keep moving away from any Russian advances, so Russia can't hope to subvert Ukrainian people into its own diminishing population. There is no possible demographic gain. And the longer the war goes on, the weaker Russia gets, and the more dependent it gets on China.

The West could end the warbtomorrow but seem content to bleed Russia dry while avoiding overt Chinese intervention . Ukraine doesn't like this but knows its still better than Russian subjugation.

With the delayed American aid, Russia is really pushing hard to take advantage....but can still only capture villages.

The one Russian success has been Avdiivka. But looking at a map you realize that Avdiivka is basically a suburb to Donetsk and just ha half hour from the railway hub of Jasynuvata.

These cities have been under occupation by pro-russian forces since 2014.

So in two years, russia’s major breakthrough was less than 30 km from their front line, and a major logistics hub, which also happen to be the furtherst away for the Ukrainian forces resupply lines.

And Russia still lost, in casualties, an army corp to achieve it.

When Avdiivka fell pro-russian channels did a big number on Avdiivka, that the Ukrainian lines had fallen, and that thousands of the defenders had been captured (which turned out to be untrure). The 7 days to envelope Avdiivka never happened. There has (still) been no encirclment, no kessel, no cauldron.

And then… not that much has happened since. Russia have very slowly been moving forward, maybe a few kilometres, but they have not yet run into any real geographical obstacle. The major breakthrough has not come, and it looks more and more like the Russian forces did not have the reserves or trained forces available to end the war. And they are terrified of another attempt at mass mobilisation.

So to many of Ukraine’s allies it has become pretty obvious that the most publicized victory for Russia really did not have that much effect for them.

So now, there's really desperate measures to stop US aid through propaganda. But even seasoned Republican leaders can see they are being fed a lot of shit by Russia.

Putinbots forget a very salient point. Russia should have, needed to have, won by now. And everyone sees this.

While long drawn out wars are disastrous to the countries involved, Ukraine knows its fight to death or have their proud nation subjugated once again.

Russia went in by choice.

Russia has everything to lose.
 
If America withdraws into its pre-WW2 isolationism then there's nothing which could get in the way of Moscow re-establishing the old Soviet Union / Russian Empire. There's no combination of Western European armies which could stand their ground against Russian forces so close to home, nor would France and Britain be willing to risk an all-out nuclear conflict. The tradition of US isolationism goes all the way back to George Washington, with his refusal to get involved in the French Revolution & Napoleonic Wars. As late as WWI, Woodrow Wilson was re-elected considering his promise to keep the US out of that European conflict.

The Atlanticism of the postwar, Cold War decades is more of an aberration than anything else and I can see either Trump or a similar US president resurrecting the isolationist position in future. Even as things stand I doubt Washington DC would go to war if say the Kremlin decided to invade Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia.
 
There's no combination of Western European armies which could stand their ground against Russian forces so close to home,
I'm not so sure. The European countries can defeat Russia right now. If they work together, a big if. But they absolutely have the military power.

But if they try it'll lead to Russia going nuclear.

Nixon introduced the Mad Man theory. And that's the core problem with MAD.

Someone, like Putin, may decide to take the world down anyway.

The West has far more to lose. Best to destroy Russian conventional forces, then give a sop to Putin with some land grabs.

Why punish a country where most peope dont have indoor plumbing?

Then watch Putin being fucked over by China.
 
Even as things stand I doubt Washington DC would go to war if say the Kremlin decided to invade Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia.
They have to, to maintain their policy of hegemony.

WW2 taught the US that isolation doesn't work, that their prosperity is related to trade. They have taken over the British Empire in maintaining trade routes, which are mostly by sea.

They don't give a shit about Russia, which has the GDP of Canada or Texas. Its China now and any weakness in approach will be exploited.

Trump can destroy that approach by doing....nothing. Like his first presidency.
 
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Putin has trainloads loads of bodies to fling at the war in Ukraine.

In fact, the more of his boys that die fighting, the less he has to worry about how to feed and house them.

He's also emptying his prisons of crazy bastard killers and rapists and offering them their freedom if they fight for him.

Untrained and inexperienced soldiers of that nature are the perfect fodder for the front lines.

They're also gung-ho, which makes for easy pickings.

He doesn't give a fuck because he doesn't need to give a fuck.
 
Putin has trainloads loads of bodies to fling at the war in Ukraine.

In fact, the more of his boys that die fighting, the less he has to worry about how to feed and house them.

He's also emptying his prisons of crazy bastard killers and rapists and offering them their freedom if they fight for him.

Untrained and inexperienced soldiers of that nature are the perfect fodder for the front lines.

They're also gung-ho, which makes for easy pickings.

He doesn't give a fuck because he doesn't need to give a fuck.
But they are now riding in 50s tech. And there's a limit on how much they have.
 
Russia is all bluster at this stage, they're now little more than a client state of China. Moscow has two options, whether it likes it or not - be Beijing's poodle, or throw their lot in with the rest of Europe.

The Russians will never again be a superpower in a world containing the USA, EU and China. Putin is living in the mid-20th century if he thinks otherwise.
 
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